Re: Pidgin/Filth

[Tom Jordan <tomj@flash.net>]

And motherf**** is a cuss word in any dialect, and disgraces those who wish to be
yokozuna. it is not defendable.
I stand by my comments.


Roxanne Pierce wrote:

> First:  Ebonics is not taught in California.  There was never a proposal to
> teach Ebonics in California.  There was a proposal to "recognize" Ebonics as
> another language, and with that recognition, to teach Ebonics speakers how to
> speak English.
>
> Second:  I did not claim that Ebonics is any sort of valid language or language
> subset. In fact, I didn't mention Ebonics at all.  Therefore, the leap from my
> discussion of pidgin to an introduction of Ebonics rather mystifies me.
>
> Third:  I was in error in calling the speech spoken by Musashimaru "pidgin".
>  Although it is popularly referred to as Hawaiian pidgin, in fact, it has
> evolved into a creole.  From the Encyclopedia Brittanica:
>
> "When a language is used as a means of communication between persons having no
> other language in common (e.g., French in 18th-century diplomacy), it is a
> lingua franca. A lingua franca native to none of those using it and with a
> sharply reduced grammar and vocabulary is called a pidgin. (This definition of
> pidgin excludes both the broken English of a beginning learner and the skillful
> but nonnative use of English in such countries as India.) When a whole speech
> community gives up its former language or languages and takes a pidgin as its
> mother tongue, the pidgin becomes a creole (is creolized)."
>
> "Pidgin English is extinct in New Zealand and the Caroline Islands and moribund
> in
> Australia but still flourishes in Melanesia (Vanuatu, Solomon Islands,
> New Guinea) and has become creolized in Hawaii."
>
> I stand by my earlier comments.
>
> Roxanne Pierce
> R2 Systems, San Diego
> mailto:rpierce@r2systems.com
>
> On Wednesday, December 10, 1997 12:18, Tom Jordan [SMTP:tomj@flash.net] wrote:
> > *** quote
> > Therefore, I don't think that the concept of "crude" should apply when
> > Musashimaru speaks in pidgin (including swear words) to Konishiki or any
> > other
> > fluent pidgin-speaker.  They're speaking another language.
> >
> > **** end quote
> >
> > Oh my gosh.
> > This comment could ONLY come from a state where Ebonics is taught.
> > Pidgin is not another language, it is an uneducated attempt at English.
> > And no
> > matter "how many" syllables, this choice of words doesn't command any
> > respect -
> > this guy is supposed to be a role model.
> >
> > I lived in Hawaii for over 4 years.
> > The "other language" of Hawaii - is more truly Hawaiian.
> > -Tom