Re: [no longer sumo]Pidgin/Filth

[Jon Sandridge <jsand@niko.unl.edu>]

Tom Jordan wrote:

***Roxanne Pierce wrote:

> *** quote
> Therefore, I don't think that the concept of "crude" should apply when
> Musashimaru speaks in pidgin (including swear words) to Konishiki or any
> other
> fluent pidgin-speaker.  They're speaking another language.
>
> **** end quote
>
> Oh my gosh.
> This comment could ONLY come from a state where Ebonics is taught.
> Pidgin is not another language, it is an uneducated attempt at English.
> And no
> matter "how many" syllables, this choice of words doesn't command any
> respect -
> this guy is supposed to be a role model.
>
> I lived in Hawaii for over 4 years.
> The "other language" of Hawaii - is more truly Hawaiian.
> -Tom

Sigh.  I had a bad feeling about this whole thing as soon as I typed that
first "motherfucker".  I disagree somewhat with Roxanne.  As she pointed
out, Musashimaru and Konishiki are _both_ speaking a mixed language, but I
only hear maru using words which are typically considered "naughty".  I
think the fact that she heard such words coming from men under 30 is more
telling than the fact that it is some form of pidgin.  Furthermore, I
strongly suspect that maru knows exactly what those words mean, and that the
connotations in the Hawaiian/Samoan/English/whatever creole he and Konishiki
use are the just what they are in English.  So I don't consider that much of
an excuse, assuming an excuse is even necessary.  I personally think
"motherfucker" is a perfectly wonderful word under certain circumstances,
and cannot be completly replaced by such things as "oh you silly fool" or
"golly!", and would never dream of holding its use against anyone who could
pick me up and put me in geostationary orbit.   :)

But I am more disturbed by Tom's apparent belief that speakers of pidgins
are "uneducated".  This is just plain wrong, as a pidgin or creole is simply
the result of contact between languages which are initially unintelligible.
Initially, such hybrids may be simpler in structure, but if they persist
eventually become indistinguishable from natural languange (in the absence
of other evidence).  They most emphatically are not the speech of the
uneducated.  As for the other language of Hawaii being Hawaiian, if I recall
correctly, Konishiki and Musashimaru were both originally from Samoan, and
the language they speak with each other is probably mostly Samoan, with an
admixture of English, Hawaiian and probably Japanese, rather than a true
Pidgin.  But now I'm _really_ talking out my ass, and not basing my
statements on any real evidence.

By the way, Ebonics is a red herring in this context, if not some form of ad
hominen or maybe ad statium.

With that, I withdraw from this discussion.

Jon