RE: Pidgin/Filth

[Roxanne Pierce <rpierce@r2systems.com>]

First:  Ebonics is not taught in California.  There was never a proposal to 
teach Ebonics in California.  There was a proposal to "recognize" Ebonics as 
another language, and with that recognition, to teach Ebonics speakers how to 
speak English.

Second:  I did not claim that Ebonics is any sort of valid language or language 
subset. In fact, I didn't mention Ebonics at all.  Therefore, the leap from my 
discussion of pidgin to an introduction of Ebonics rather mystifies me.

Third:  I was in error in calling the speech spoken by Musashimaru "pidgin". 
 Although it is popularly referred to as Hawaiian pidgin, in fact, it has 
evolved into a creole.  From the Encyclopedia Brittanica:

"When a language is used as a means of communication between persons having no 
other language in common (e.g., French in 18th-century diplomacy), it is a 
lingua franca. A lingua franca native to none of those using it and with a 
sharply reduced grammar and vocabulary is called a pidgin. (This definition of 
pidgin excludes both the broken English of a beginning learner and the skillful 
but nonnative use of English in such countries as India.) When a whole speech 
community gives up its former language or languages and takes a pidgin as its 
mother tongue, the pidgin becomes a creole (is creolized)."

"Pidgin English is extinct in New Zealand and the Caroline Islands and moribund 
in
Australia but still flourishes in Melanesia (Vanuatu, Solomon Islands,
New Guinea) and has become creolized in Hawaii."

I stand by my earlier comments.

Roxanne Pierce
R2 Systems, San Diego
mailto:rpierce@r2systems.com

On Wednesday, December 10, 1997 12:18, Tom Jordan [SMTP:tomj@flash.net] wrote:
> *** quote
> Therefore, I don't think that the concept of "crude" should apply when
> Musashimaru speaks in pidgin (including swear words) to Konishiki or any
> other
> fluent pidgin-speaker.  They're speaking another language.
>
> **** end quote
>
> Oh my gosh.
> This comment could ONLY come from a state where Ebonics is taught.
> Pidgin is not another language, it is an uneducated attempt at English.
> And no
> matter "how many" syllables, this choice of words doesn't command any
> respect -
> this guy is supposed to be a role model.
>
> I lived in Hawaii for over 4 years.
> The "other language" of Hawaii - is more truly Hawaiian.
> -Tom