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Re: [sumo] kaio chances





Alex Ferguson wrote:


I can, better, say that your argument doesn't logically follow. There are set, performance-based criteria for promotion; Kaio has never met them. There was plenty of talk that Asashoryu ought not to be promoted having met them, for such reasons (and others, besides), but he was. I've never heard anyone previously imply that either on the one hand, Kaio was so dignified he ought to be promoted regardless, or on the other, that he lacks the dignity, even if he performs up to snuff.

No, they say he is too dignified to be promoted with a less than standard needed result at present. HE says it. Maybe I'm using the wrong word - too proud to be promoted under those circumstances.


So
the issue is not, in his case (and for all practical it seems to me,
ever) about dignity-as-distinct-from-performance.  Is winning two basho
back to back somehow more 'dignified' than winning five over a longer
period of time?  Beats me.  Would he have some quality of dignity if
he'd had one more win last basho that he otherwise lack?  Only if one
defines 'dignity' in an entirely circular manner, IMO.

No, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. If he would have won that one more bout, there would be no need to be "dignified", because he would have met with the standards, bent to suit him as they were (no consecutive yushos). 12 wins didn't even meet that. I'm saying he is too proud to get a promotion, when he and everyone connected knows that his performance did not meet even the minimum standard stated by rijicho ,shinpans, YDC members, etc. He would have felt uncomfortable. He said that himself. The shinpan who opposed his promotion said it would dishonor him if he were promoted with a 12-3 co-jun yusho. He doesn't want to be remembered as "that Yokozuna who was promoted because they needed a Japanese Yokozuna real badly, regardless of his not meeting any criteria, and everyone bent over backwards so he could get it".

I disagree. Facts. 4 times. He failed. Injured and/or healthy, he failed. Choked. He may finally succeed now, but till now-choked.


Don't you mean five?

To fail is not to choke.  (Necessarily.)  To choke is to fail
_specifically due to the pressure on one to succeed_.  Unless you have
powers of telepathy you cannot state as a matter of fact he "choked",
and you'd need IMO much more powerful circumstantial evidence that it's
even likely.  (That he's too injury prone, and/or not quite good enough
to hit the required standard both seem to me to be more persuasive.)

Twice out of the four he wasn't injured, IIRC. I will correct my statement. Circumstantial evidence points to the fact that KaioU repeatedly choked when given the opportunity. To fail is not to choke necessarily, but to fail 4 or 5 times at the same task, well, let's say, could lead to, well, an assumption, that maybe, he choked.
Regarding the 4 or 5 tries, the ML has decided it was 5, but some say 4. As I do waste my time daily scouring the On-line Japanese press,quite a few stubbornly stick to 4.


Still,
Kintamayama


[EndPost by Moti <sumo@dichne.com>]