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RE: Mihamahiro of Takasago-beya. Did he really exist? Did he do Aikido?



> > sumo is all about force.  It could be said that Aikido is the
> penultimate
> > development of henka.  And the locks and holds involve
> immoblizing joints,
>
> Quite a good description I think.
>
> So but then, an opponent's henka is only effective if you in a
> sense defeat
> yourself, if you drive forward too hard.

No, not in aikido.  All that's necessary is the slightest bit of movement.
Aikidoka don't train against charging people; they train against controlled
strikes and grips.  I've been thrown by aikidoka when all I tried to do was
reach out and grab their wrist.

> And you only need to charge forward real hard against a very strong
> opponent.
>
> You don't need to do it against a light, older, man. For him, all that's
> necessary is for even a not very skilled rikishi to do buchikamasu - take
> one strong step, hit with the head, and the hands. And no matter what he
> does, he's gonna go flying himself.

If the rikishi can do buchikamasu against an aikidoka, then that is not a
very skilled aikidoka...

> > happened, or is exaggerated in someway, I don't know.  But I
> wouldn't find
> > it particularly difficult to believe.  Practioners of aikido and judo
> alike
> > will tell you that when thrown by someone who's really, really
> good, it's
> > almost like magic.  Like flying, even.  It's kinda fun...
>
> Well, I practice sumo with some of the top judoka here in Czech. In fact,
> currently I train three Czech national champions in judo to do
> sumo. And no
> matter how good they are, and they're very good - in judo - they're not
> gonna throw me like that.

Of course, it really depends on what "dohyo", as it were, we're talking
about.  Put a judoka in a mawashi in a sumo keikoba, and he's probably not
going to be as effective as he would be if you both wear judogi on a tatami.

> In fact, what you say above is what all of them think when they
> come for the
> first time, naturally. But it just doesn't happen. If a judoka
> tries to hook
> your legs, or throw you or something, in a judo way, it's very simple to
> defeat him in sumo. Once they learn the basics of sumo, learn how to push,
> that's when they can start being effective.

I think this is a matter of course.  Judo uses a variety of clothing holds
to be effective.  Take away that clothing and judoka are at a disadvantage.
Sumo techniques have developed for use on the dohyo, and they're the best
techniques for on the dohyo.

> But no matter how good they are, if they're small and not strong, they're
> just not gonna defeat a sumo wrestler. For instance, I have one
> deshi there,
> he's a lightweight in sumo terms, 85 kilos (187 lbs), top judoka in Czech,
> goes to international judo tourneys. And he's gotten quite skilled at sumo
> too.
>
> But no matter what the kid does, he's just not gonna defeat me, any time I
> want, I hit him, he goes flying, literally... And it's no magic...

I think you misunderstood me.  I was not talking judo/aikido vs. sumo.  I
was referring to being thrown in aikido and/or judo.  I never said that a
judoka has an advantage over a sumotori.  I don't believe in comparing
various styles of martial arts.  I believe in the skill of the individual
fighters.  If you, an amateur sumo wrestler, fought a judoka wearing
mawashi, on the dohyo, then you had the advantage.  If you were wearing
judogi and fighting by judo rules, the outcome could be very different.  A
judoka on the dohyo is deprived of the judogi to grab, and his movement is
much more restricted because moving out of bounds results only in a warning,
not a loss.  At the same time, if a rikishi met a judoka on judo mat, he'd
lack the mawashi for leverage, tsuppari and tsuki attacks would be illegal,
and even if he pushes his opponent out of the ring, he doesn't necessarily
win.  Different sports, different situations.  None of these stories about
Ueshiba-sensei are about him putting on the mawashi and testing his skill on
the dohyo.

> And often, many Aikidoka come in, thinking the same, and there's
> just no way
> for them to do, what you'd think they'd do, use my force against myself.
>
> In fact, just three weeks ago, there was a hilarious incident,
> one top kid,
> really by all accounts and what I've heard good, came in, thought he was
> gonna do that "ultimate henka", I hit him head on, not hard, but the kid
> flew like two meters in the air, landed on his back, took a while
> before he
> got up, and didn't want to practice anymore.

Again, he obviously wasn't very good if you hit him head on.

> Then he did eventually, but aikido and all that redirecting stuff just
> doesn't seem to work like in those legends.

Not on the dohyo, playing by sumo rules.  Wait, that's not entirely true.
Mainoumi put judo theories and techniques to very good use versus much
larger opponents on the dohyo.

> Otherwise, all the rikishi wouldn't need to do butsukari, shiko,
> teppou etc.
> They'd just do Aikido 5 hours a day, and become Yokozunas. I
> doesn't seem to
> work that way, unfortunately. :)

Again, for on the dohyo, sumo is best.  Sumo's philosophy and techniques
have grown based on the rules of sumo and dohyo.  No one is saying that
aikido (or judo) are magic disciplines making their practitioners invincible
to any foe.  An aikidoka on the dohyo is out of his element because sumo is
an offense-based sport, and there is no offense in aikido, only defense.
So, of course, an aikidoka is ill-suited for sumo.  However, that doesn't
mean that a skilled aikidoka can't throw a larger attacker.

Josh Reyer